Author | Discussion | Mikeyboy 2693 posts 72 months | Thursday 19th November 2009 
Well this has prompted a long debate. On the last post, it's a bit much to ask that lotus hit the mark on practicality and quality on their (nearly) first attempt. The real point is that those aspects can be dealt with much more easily than refining the handling of an already excellent car to be actually better than the Evora is now. I think with the resources porsche have they can do it. The real question is wether they see a need to, it's not like the lotus is going to hurt their sales in the US much.
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ZeroH 1733 posts 26 months | Thursday 19th November 2009 
White-Bull said:
I've too tried the Evora. It's up there on steering, ride and handling but it's motor is utterly gutless. Add that in to a trans from the Avensis and a ***t interior and it doesn't measure compare. Evo are out to lunch putting it as winner of eCoty v GT3. 3 out of 5 journos preferred the GT3 but they managed to fix the scores so that the Evora won. Shame on you Evo. Can't disagree with the comp re the GT3 - I too thought it underhand that one judge decided to place it last with a score low enough to allow it to be defeated by the Evora. However, I don't think that a car that can be compared so closely with the latest and greatest GT3 is anything other than a brilliant achievement. Agree the tranny needs work, unfortunately, Lotus hands are slightly tied by the drivetrain that they are using from Toyota. Such are the compromises of companies that don't have the scale of the big-boys. I think most journo's have recognised that the car is a better drive than the Cayman but unfortunately the quality perception, residual q-mark, and engine consipre against cleaning up against the porsche.
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Callughan 3306 posts 29 months | Friday 20th November 2009 
ZeroH said:
mrdemon said:
"They do have ESP though its one of those sports options "
nope all the car has is traction control
NO ESP, that is due on the next one.
Try the wet handling track at silverstone in a Evora :-)
They show you just how good PSM is when you play in the Porsches.
ESP is due next yr on Evora. Not that the car needs it... utterly communicative... wet handling track in an Evora would be a joy. The traction control is extremely clever in fact with the ability to detect and neutralise understeer.... it also has a electronic differential lock providing for fanastic traction. Have driven Cayman gen2 at silverstone, today I drove Evora on road and track... there is no question that Lotus has hit the bullseye... sorry Cayman owners... even modded Cayman owners (sorry Shan !) do not possess a car that drives as well. My thoughts are that; i) it steers better (beautiful weighting, great information of whats underfoot, immediate response) than any porsche Ive driven (incl 7GT3, 993c4s, 6tt, 7tt, cayman 1&2, 986/987 etc etc).. in fact only car I've driven with a more direct feel to what the front wheels are doing is the lotus one-eleven, and that doesnt really count as a road car imo, ii) amazing compliance yet at the same time the car feels 100% track fit... amazing compromise that Lotus has found that is simply beyond the Cayman ime, iii) actually a very well designed and easy to use interior with supportive and comfortable seats. iv) This car can soak up track punishment - you won't find the limits of its brakes, and it feels almost as fit for track as the elise, which is quite an achievement considering its on-road ability. Negatives include: i) uninspiring engine... should it be punchier, yes, however, fact is that on road, if you utilise 100% of its acceleration across a challenging b road - such is the car's chassis competence, i don't believe you'll be overtaken by anything this side of a turbo. On track theres no doubt more power could be easily accomodated by the chassis and this can lead you to wanting more. ii) gearshift is long of throw and less precise than it could be. iii) As already mentioned the gear ratio's are quite long... rectified by choosing the shorter ratio box. iv) It doesnt feel quite as solid as a Porsche... can't fault the materials per say or even interior finish (no squeeks / rattles) but maybe its just the way the door shuts, or the general feel.. its intangible, can't put my finger on it... maybe its just perception ? v) brakes grabby at top of travel - porsche progression is better. vi) terrible rear view, albeit reversing camera available and wing mirrors are big. Would I buy one ? Well not as a replacement for the turbo, but potentially when/if they release a higher performance engine.... and once I've seen how the residuals perform. Informative write up  , sometimes it's not how technically good a car is, but the way it makes you feel as an owner. Interesting comment about Shans car how did you find it when you drove it?
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red_slr 992 posts 26 months | Friday 20th November 2009 
Whats interesting is Lotus set out to build a 911 beater... yet almost everyone is comparing it to the Cayman... very few mentions of the 911.
Now, many will say ahh but the 911 is 70k+... true.. but the £55k Evora is meant to come in a good 10k under the base 911.
Yet now its being compared to the Cayman, which starts at £36.4k... I just dont get that.
Evora has 276bhp / 350Nm BUT 1382kg Base Cayman might be a tad slower but there is not going to be much in it IMHO... 1330kg, 265bhp / 300Nm.
£20,000 in the price difference.... OUCH...
So, I say it should be compared to the 911... I just managed to compare the Evora to the base Cayman which is £20k cheaper.... I think it should be compared to the 997.2S....
If Lotus had done a proper job in the first place I would give them credit for the car. However, IMHO they have not used the best engine and gearbox on the market. They should have put something like the Nissan VQ37VHR. 330bhp and 350bhp versions out of the box. Twin clutch box out of the box if needed.
IMHO....
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98C4S 1999 posts 27 months | Friday 20th November 2009 
ZeroH said:
Have driven Cayman gen2 at silverstone, today I drove Evora on road and track... there is no question that Lotus has hit the bullseye... sorry Cayman owners... even modded Cayman owners (sorry Shan !) do not possess a car that drives as well. Not sure about the personal attack Miras? Have you driven a Cayman with 20 more BHP and 30 more LB/Ft of Torque than a Gen 2? And with a suspension/geometry set up that Chris Franklin describes as 'remarkable, and just like a GT3 (996)? Is the Evora a better car than Cayman S? Probably, After all, the benchmark car for Lotus was the 911, not the Cayman (thats a compliment in my book) Would I have one? No, I dont like how it looks, It seems disproportionate, is it part of an aspirational range? No, Will it it be as reliable as Porsche? I doubt it. Does it have the same huge global community following Porsche's do? No But more importantly, my car inc mods cost £20k less than a like for like Evora, and I doubt I will lose any significant amount in depreciation in the next year. To some people, depreciation and value for money isnt a concern, it is for me. On the road, where it matters more to me, I am sure my car would be quicker in every respect. And in my opinion, it looks a lot better, and sounds a lot better too. If People bought cars purely on how they handled, we would all drive Elise's and Exiges, If people bought cars purely on speed, we would all have GTR's Everything in life is subjective... very much like this post Edited for Spelling
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beady 18 posts 15 months | Friday 20th November 2009 
Remember that Lotus are only aiming to sel 2,000 Evoras worldwide per yr, and only 400 in the UK.
The 911 is the true competitor not the Cayman -the child seats dictate that. Fact is the Evora is a much better drive than a 911 C2. Anyone that has driven both will comcede that.
I am much happier in a car knowing it is has a rarity value. I see half a dozen 911s every day and add in the whole porsche range and it is dozens. Yet it is quite rare to see a single lotus (of any type) in a week
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ZeroH 1733 posts 26 months | Friday 20th November 2009 
98C4S said:
ZeroH said:
Have driven Cayman gen2 at silverstone, today I drove Evora on road and track... there is no question that Lotus has hit the bullseye... sorry Cayman owners... even modded Cayman owners (sorry Shan !) do not possess a car that drives as well. Not sure about the personal attack Miras? Have you driven a Cayman with 20 more BHP and 30 more LB/Ft of Torque than a Gen 2? And with a suspension/geometry set up that Chris Franklin describes as 'remarkable, and just like a GT3 (996)? Is the Evora a better car than Cayman S? Probably, After all, the benchmark car for Lotus was the 911, not the Cayman (thats a compliment in my book) Would I have one? No, I dont like how it looks, It seems disproportionate, is it part of an aspirational range? No, Will it it be as reliable as Porsche? I doubt it. Does it have the same huge global community following Porsche's do? No But more importantly, my car inc mods cost £20k less than a like for like Evora, and I doubt I will lose any significant amount in depreciation in the next year. To some people, depreciation and value for money isnt a concern, it is for me. On the road, where it matters more to me, I am sure my car would be quicker in every respect. And in my opinion, it looks a lot better, and sounds a lot better too. If People bought cars purely on how they handled, we would all drive Elise's and Exiges, If people bought cars purely on speed, we would all have GTR's Everything in life is subjective... very much like this post Edited for Spelling
Don't take anything personally mate - not intended... it sounds like you've read my post as some kind of criticism of your car - its not, its just my thoughts based on driving the car and in comparison to the Cayman's I've driven and been in (yours incl) - I've driven the Gen2 CayS hard on track yep and honestly, it comes out second best in terms of i) steering, ii) ride iii) handling. But then, I believe it also bests the 911 on i) and ii), and is only bettered on iii) by the more focused 911 models. As regards residuals, image/brand perception/aspiration, I agree this will be a barrier to some and I've recognised this in my write up... it really does need a better engine and I have no doubt your car especially, and any CaymanS has the Evora's straight line number & for sure thats not a small thing to overlook. Driving my own car home after Evora put this sharply into focus... it has things the other way around, monster power but only a fraction of the steering and chassis fluency... as you say it depends what people want from their car - try and get some seat time in the Evora and let me know your thoughts !!
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jackal 6568 posts 119 months | Friday 20th November 2009 
GT2
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FlybyWyre 193 posts 31 months | Friday 20th November 2009  Whats interesting is Lotus set out to build a 911 beater... yet almost everyone is comparing it to the Cayman... very few mentions of the 911. Now, many will say ahh but the 911 is 70k+... true.. but the £55k Evora is meant to come in a good 10k under the base 911. Yet now its being compared to the Cayman, which starts at £36.4k... I just dont get that. Evora has 276bhp / 350Nm BUT 1382kg Base Cayman might be a tad slower but there is not going to be much in it IMHO... 1330kg, 265bhp / 300Nm. £20,000 in the price difference.... OUCH... So, I say it should be compared to the 911... I just managed to compare the Evora to the base Cayman which is £20k cheaper.... I think it should be compared to the 997.2S.... If Lotus had done a proper job in the first place I would give them credit for the car. However, IMHO they have not used the best engine and gearbox on the market. They should have put something like the Nissan VQ37VHR. 330bhp and 350bhp versions out of the box. Twin clutch box out of the box if needed. IMHO.... True but the OP was going for Evora - Cayman comparison. Some might say the Cayman is the new standard.
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savyboy 7 posts 10 months | Saturday 21st November 2009 
beady said:
Remember that Lotus are only aiming to sel 2,000 Evoras worldwide per yr, and only 400 in the UK.
The 911 is the true competitor not the Cayman -the child seats dictate that. Fact is the Evora is a much better drive than a 911 C2. Anyone that has driven both will comcede that.
I am much happier in a car knowing it is has a rarity value. I see half a dozen 911s every day and add in the whole porsche range and it is dozens. Yet it is quite rare to see a single lotus (of any type) in a week Hello Folks, New here and felt I could chime in with some info. I made a post on another forum and I must respectfully disagree with the opinion noted above. There are pics as well as verbiage in the other post so hopefully I may post the link as the rest of my response: http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/997-forum/53..."Evora vs 997.2 C4S Sport PASM" (I own the C4S) Cheers Mates
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98C4S 1999 posts 27 months | Saturday 21st November 2009 
Where are we seeing that a base 997 is 70k? Its 63k on the road? and its quite well specced as is.
Miras, how can you say you can tell how a car drives from being a passenger for 5 mins, with no cornering what so ever, in central london without going over 30mph? and then compare that to your Evora track drive?
I'm not saying the cayman is better, maybe it isn't , but you can't compare it to a car you haven't driven, and barely been a passenger in?
Interesting read on the C4S vs Evora.. I'd like to see a comparison on the 997 3.6 vs Evora, after all, they are more closely matched on price, and 2+2
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ZeroH 1733 posts 26 months | Saturday 21st November 2009 
98C4S said:
Where are we seeing that a base 997 is 70k? Its 63k on the road? and its quite well specced as is.
Miras, how can you say you can tell how a car drives from being a passenger for 5 mins, with no cornering what so ever, in central london without going over 30mph? and then compare that to your Evora track drive?
I'm not saying the cayman is better, maybe it isn't , but you can't compare it to a car you haven't driven, and barely been a passenger in?
Interesting read on the C4S vs Evora.. I'd like to see a comparison on the 997 3.6 vs Evora, after all, they are more closely matched on price, and 2+2 Shan - stiffer aftermarket springs and a new geo do not help steering fluency, ride compliance, or the ability to mask the weight of the engine in extreme transitional situations, to the extent that you have an Evora beater. I must admit that I am making an assumption that your car is now on a par with a gen2 CayS (which has revised spring rates, dampers, and setup), itself a big improvement on gen1 in terms of ride and handling fluency - have you driven a gen2 CaymanS ? If so perhaps you can add your own thoughts on how your car compares ? The differing behaviour of the cars is the result of fundamental engineering differences - lotus uses v stiff bushing, suspension is suspended via double wishbones from a bonded alu chassis tub, the feel from the hydraulic steering & quickness of rack, and chassis rigidity (3x that of Elise) from which everything else ride and handling related follows - these Evora traits are not overcome by changing your springs. Thats the point I'm trying to make ! You know perfectly well that I am aware of what Chris can do with minimal suspension mods and a revised geo, as he's done (twice) the same to my car & I'm thrilled with the results - so I understand where you are coming from but seriously, all I can say to you is drive the car - on road and track if possible, and then lets have another conversation about it.
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Badjwa 593 posts 14 months | Saturday 21st November 2009 
Where's Demon when you need him. Two conflicting reports with rennlist.
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jackal 6568 posts 119 months | Saturday 21st November 2009 
Badjwa said:
Where's Demon when you need him. Two conflicting reports with rennlist. god help us !
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98C4S 1999 posts 27 months | Saturday 21st November 2009 
ZeroH said:
Shan - stiffer aftermarket springs and a new geo do not help steering fluency, ride compliance, or the ability to mask the weight of the engine in extreme transitional situations, to the extent that you have an Evora beater. I must admit that I am making an assumption that your car is now on a par with a gen2 CayS (which has revised spring rates, dampers, and setup), itself a big improvement on gen1 in terms of ride and handling fluency - have you driven a gen2 CaymanS ? If so perhaps you can add your own thoughts on how your car compares ?
The differing behaviour of the cars is the result of fundamental engineering differences - lotus uses v stiff bushing, suspension is suspended via double wishbones from a bonded alu chassis tub, the feel from the hydraulic steering & quickness of rack, and chassis rigidity (3x that of Elise) from which everything else ride and handling related follows - these Evora traits are not overcome by changing your springs. Thats the point I'm trying to make !
You know perfectly well that I am aware of what Chris can do with minimal suspension mods and a revised geo, as he's done (twice) the same to my car & I'm thrilled with the results - so I understand where you are coming from but seriously, all I can say to you is drive the car - on road and track if possible, and then lets have another conversation about it.
Miras, I'm not disagreeing that the Evora is a better Handling car than a Cayman S. I am stating that, to me, your conclusion that it is better than a modded Cayman doesnt hold any weight. Its based on assumption only. Yes, I have driven a Gen 2 Non PDK Cayman S several times. (19s no PASM), in terms of performance, very little in it, infact, I think I would only have the upper hand at top end. The power delivery is different, smoother, and cleaner sounding on the new car. In terms of handling - chalk and cheese, my car is more directional (point and shoot) and more confidence inspiring. The pay off is a more bumpy ride. You dont agree that a lower ride height and centre of gravity, Wider track, Stiffer spring rate, and optimised Geo set up would make a difference to Turn in, steering fluency yada yada etc.. Minute changes can make a massive difference, thats where Chris excels where others don't.
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Burnham 1433 posts 96 months | Saturday 21st November 2009 
Without reading any of the posts, and being a die hard Porsche fan, I wouldnt even consider the Evora over a Cayman.
Likewise,I'm sure there are (less) Lotus diehards out there that would not consider a Porsche either.
Lotus will have to contend with buyers like me.
Good luck to them.
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ZeroH 1733 posts 26 months | Saturday 21st November 2009 
98C4S said:
ZeroH said:
Shan - stiffer aftermarket springs and a new geo do not help steering fluency, ride compliance, or the ability to mask the weight of the engine in extreme transitional situations, to the extent that you have an Evora beater. I must admit that I am making an assumption that your car is now on a par with a gen2 CayS (which has revised spring rates, dampers, and setup), itself a big improvement on gen1 in terms of ride and handling fluency - have you driven a gen2 CaymanS ? If so perhaps you can add your own thoughts on how your car compares ?
The differing behaviour of the cars is the result of fundamental engineering differences - lotus uses v stiff bushing, suspension is suspended via double wishbones from a bonded alu chassis tub, the feel from the hydraulic steering & quickness of rack, and chassis rigidity (3x that of Elise) from which everything else ride and handling related follows - these Evora traits are not overcome by changing your springs. Thats the point I'm trying to make !
You know perfectly well that I am aware of what Chris can do with minimal suspension mods and a revised geo, as he's done (twice) the same to my car & I'm thrilled with the results - so I understand where you are coming from but seriously, all I can say to you is drive the car - on road and track if possible, and then lets have another conversation about it.
Miras, I'm not disagreeing that the Evora is a better Handling car than a Cayman S. I am stating that, to me, your conclusion that it is better than a modded Cayman doesnt hold any weight. Its based on assumption only. Yes, I have driven a Gen 2 Non PDK Cayman S several times. (19s no PASM), in terms of performance, very little in it, infact, I think I would only have the upper hand at top end. The power delivery is different, smoother, and cleaner sounding on the new car. In terms of handling - chalk and cheese, my car is more directional (point and shoot) and more confidence inspiring. The pay off is a more bumpy ride. You dont agree that a lower ride height and centre of gravity, Wider track, Stiffer spring rate, and optimised Geo set up would make a difference to Turn in, steering fluency yada yada etc.. Minute changes can make a massive difference, thats where Chris excels where others don't. Mate, I think its a case of defining "better" - to lots of people the Cayman is a better car - but for me, I've already stated all the areas I believe Evora bests gen2 Cayman, that includes all aspects of chassis competence and steering, I would also say that braking power is at least on a par if not better (based on my track experience in both), albeit not as progressive to use or feelsome as the Porsche. Now, lets compare a gen2 cayman with your car - engine performance is probably very similar , and you have H&R springs and revised geo compared to Porsche's own more extensive revisions. I don't think its a massive assumption for me to compare Evora to your car based on my experience of a gen2 S on that basis. Your car is fantastic Shan - you've definitely improved on the gen1 Cayman, but please, whilst Chris @CG makes the best of the hardware he has to work with, its no substitute for a better engineered platform from the start.
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98C4S 1999 posts 27 months | Saturday 21st November 2009 
ZeroH said:
Your car is fantastic Shan - you've definitely improved on the gen1 Cayman, but please, whilst Chris @CG makes the best of the hardware he has to work with, its no substitute for a better engineered platform from the start. Stale mate dude, I think we have to agree to disagree A car that is not as good as another to start with can be improved considerably with some select mods. I didnt just go and buy any random bits to make my car lower. I did extensive research, and my findings were: Eibach Springs - no others as they are made specifically for Caymans and not just 987s. My rear wheels stick out 14mm more than standard. It now has almost identical front and rear track to a 997 GT2. Add this to Chris' voodoo magic. But this is all academic as my point is that you should drive two cars rather than make an assumption on one. You may be right - the Evora may still be better, but at the same time.. you might be pleasantly surprised.
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ZeroH 1733 posts 26 months | Saturday 21st November 2009 
98C4S said:
ZeroH said:
Your car is fantastic Shan - you've definitely improved on the gen1 Cayman, but please, whilst Chris @CG makes the best of the hardware he has to work with, its no substitute for a better engineered platform from the start. Stale mate dude, I think we have to agree to disagree A car that is not as good as another to start with can be improved considerably with some select mods. I didnt just go and buy any random bits to make my car lower. I did extensive research, and my findings were: Eibach Springs - no others as they are made specifically for Caymans and not just 987s. My rear wheels stick out 14mm more than standard. It now has almost identical front and rear track to a 997 GT2. Add this to Chris' voodoo magic. But this is all academic as my point is that you should drive two cars rather than make an assumption on one. You may be right - the Evora may still be better, but at the same time.. you might be pleasantly surprised. Have spacers on my car as well front (14mm) and rear (17mm) also - makes a minimal difference. I also had Techart springs (Eibach made tuned for the turbo specifically) and they ruined the ride on b-roads - but I did experience the handling benefit... so I'm not talking entirely blind based on your mods  There is no voodoo to what Chris does - he is working within the parameters of what Porsche engineered but just to a more exacting level than most other shops. Its not black magic and indeed he is always telling his customers exactly this. Drive Evora and lets pick this up again.
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FrankCayman 580 posts 50 months | Saturday 21st November 2009 
You can go on about this, that and everything else. End of the day, Lotus have been making the same go karts for so long, people will take a long time to trust anything new. I sat in one, the dashboard was like metal covered in sticky back plastic - you could see air bubbles in places. The matt lamination on the brochure had been applied with more care. Also, the gen 2, 2.9 Cayman can be had with a good selection of options for £40K. The Evora is competing with the 911, and I know what I would rather have  I am sure the Lotus dealers will be littered with 2 year old 911's for the first year, until they all go back to their trusty steed.
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