Author | Discussion |
Mr Fix It
317 posts
105 months | Sunday 7th February 
Has anyone retro fitted a traction control system such as the Racelogic one to a 996 GT3? Ok, I know they dont have them as they are track spec cars, but it would be useful to have one when one the road, especially if others are driving it....
The racelogic ones I think are fitted to the lotus exige and gumpert etc. It works off the ABS sensors so such be ok to fit.
Cheers for any advice.
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ChrisW.
1133 posts
92 months | Sunday 7th February
Yes the previous owner of my car --- at GT3MkI fitted a traction control system as an adjunct to the ABS system.
I can only out you in touch with the previous owner ... in Falkirk, but will that help ?
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kVA
1299 posts
42 months | Sunday 7th February
I thought traction control needed an electronic throttle?
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Steve Rance
1626 posts
68 months | Sunday 7th February
it would be difficult to set up as the dynamic of the 911 is very different to most other cars. The relationship between front and rear grip is quite unbalanced as in most of the grip is at the rear on the driven wheels so the rear would probably not benefit from traction control unless the car was being driven very badly. The front end is dealt with quite adequately by the abs system. To be honest, I think you run a strong risk of making things worse by fitting one.
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kVA
1299 posts
42 months | Sunday 7th February
Steve Rance said:
it would be difficult to set up as the dynamic of the 911 is very different to most other cars. The relationship between front and rear grip is quite unbalanced as in most of the grip is at the rear on the driven wheels so the rear would probably not benefit from traction control unless the car was being driven very badly. The front end is dealt with quite adequately by the abs system. To be honest, I think you run a strong risk of making things worse by fitting one. Errr... There would be no change to the front axle anyway (well, not unless you have one of those 4WD GT3's that you see advertised on eBay every now and again  ) Proper traction control backs off the throttle if you have wheelspin and only applies the brakes if that is not enough to provide traction: If you don't have an electronic throttle, all TC can do is apply the brakes on the spinning wheel to try and switch the torque across the diff to the other wheel. If you have your foot hard down, all you will achieve is the same as what a Limited Slip Diff does anyway - but less effectively and knackering the brakes at the same time! Doesn't the GT3 already have an LSD?
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Dan7357
1470 posts
45 months | Sunday 7th February
ChrisW. said:
Yes the previous owner of my car --- at GT3MkI fitted a traction control system as an adjunct to the ABS system.
I can only out you in touch with the previous owner ... in Falkirk, but will that help ? Would that be Dunc ? Zanzibar MK1 ? If it is, nice car and love the wheels !
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Mr Fix It
317 posts
105 months | Sunday 7th February
I would have thought the GT3 does have an LSD?
Im sure there are a few traction control systems on the market which work in different ways. I think standard factory fit TCs work by breaking individual wheels as mentioned earlier in the thread, or by adjusting the throttle postion.
But I think the racelogic one only picks up info from the wheels, either by plugging into the ABS system, or if the car does not have ABS you can attach something like a bolt head on the wheel somewhere and a sensor on the car so that the TC picks up the wheel rpm, ie as the bolt head spins by the sensor. When wheelspin is detected the racelogic TC then reduces engine power by cutting a single injector pulse or a spark, until you get the tyre grip back. This is a faster acting system than the wheel braking or throttle postion adjusting systems.
The racelogic website talks about their system, but there is no subsitute for feedback from anyone who actually has had something like this fitted.
I dont have a GT3, but am thinking about one, also thought about the 6TT. I like the idea of the 4 wheel drive and TC, stability etc of the 6TT but I feel the 6TT is a bit too "posh" for me.... I know this is a strange feeling but one I may need to overcome! I really like the motorsport look of the GT3 cars. I have yet to drive them, which I intend to do in the comming months, but any info I can find before hand will be useful.
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drmark
664 posts
23 months | Sunday 7th February
Mr Fix It said:
I would have thought the GT3 does have an LSD?
Im sure there are a few traction control systems on the market which work in different ways. I think standard factory fit TCs work by breaking individual wheels as mentioned earlier in the thread, or by adjusting the throttle postion.
But I think the racelogic one only picks up info from the wheels, either by plugging into the ABS system, or if the car does not have ABS you can attach something like a bolt head on the wheel somewhere and a sensor on the car so that the TC picks up the wheel rpm, ie as the bolt head spins by the sensor. When wheelspin is detected the racelogic TC then reduces engine power by cutting a single injector pulse or a spark, until you get the tyre grip back. This is a faster acting system than the wheel braking or throttle postion adjusting systems.
The racelogic website talks about their system, but there is no subsitute for feedback from anyone who actually has had something like this fitted.
I dont have a GT3, but am thinking about one, also thought about the 6TT. I like the idea of the 4 wheel drive and TC, stability etc of the 6TT but I feel the 6TT is a bit too "posh" for me.... I know this is a strange feeling but one I may need to overcome! I really like the motorsport look of the GT3 cars. I have yet to drive them, which I intend to do in the comming months, but any info I can find before hand will be useful. You don't need traction control with a working LSD (standard on a GT3 but often worn out in older cars)and a half decent right foot - rear traction is remarkable given the power, even in the wet. One advantage of having the engine where it is. Makes the 996 a much more visceral drive than the 997. If you want TC and a less pointy, edgy machine, go for the 997 variants.
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Mr Fix It
317 posts
105 months | Sunday 7th February
I wish i could, but the 997 GT3s are too expensive for me at the moment.
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kVA
1299 posts
42 months | Sunday 7th February
Haven't looked at the Racelogic system and that sounds a bit better (although I'm not keen on solutions that unbalance the engine if that's how they work).
A LSD renders traction control pretty-much redundant though anyway as it transfers the torque, rather than reducing it.
However, please don't get confused between Traction Control and Stability Control... TC will only reduce wheelspin when under power - it won't save you from the consequences of understeer or lift-off oversteer - you will still crash if you try to defy the laws of physics!
PSM is the only device that will save you from that (and even then only if you are only just too quick...) Retro-fitting Stability Control is a HHUUUGGGEEE job (just ask Audi about the TT if you don't believe me) - it is a 'take the whole car apart and put it back together again' job!
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DanH
12157 posts
97 months | Sunday 7th February
You can fit the racelogic, and I think it will work well as its the same unit lotus use to great effect. It works from measuring wheel slip so it chassis agnostic. Makes no odds its going on a 911.
I don't see how it is comparable to an LSD as an LSD won't stop you power oversteering whereas with this racelogic you can effectively dial in the angle it will hold the car at.
My only qualm would be someone butchering the loom to fit it. Best solution would be to get the identical ECU plugs and create a little lead that goes between loom and ECU and hook into that. So then its just a plug and play mod, no hacking.
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kVA
1299 posts
42 months | Monday 8th February
DanH said:
I don't see how it is comparable to an LSD as an LSD won't stop you power oversteering whereas with this racelogic you can effectively dial in the angle it will hold the car at. I must research this unit if that is true... That is an amazing bit of technology if it can do that in a car without a yaw-rate sensor and without a steering angle sensor, just from the ABS system alone? How does it know what angle the car is at then, relative to the steered angle? My neighbour is quite senior at Racelogic, so I'll check, but I think you have misunderstood what this system does.
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cragswinter
785 posts
33 months | Monday 8th February
kVA said:
Steve Rance said:
it would be difficult to set up as the dynamic of the 911 is very different to most other cars. The relationship between front and rear grip is quite unbalanced as in most of the grip is at the rear on the driven wheels so the rear would probably not benefit from traction control unless the car was being driven very badly. The front end is dealt with quite adequately by the abs system. To be honest, I think you run a strong risk of making things worse by fitting one. Errr... There would be no change to the front axle anyway (well, not unless you have one of those 4WD GT3's that you see advertised on eBay every now and again ) Proper traction control backs off the throttle if you have wheelspin and only applies the brakes if that is not enough to provide traction: If you don't have an electronic throttle, all TC can do is apply the brakes on the spinning wheel to try and switch the torque across the diff to the other wheel. If you have your foot hard down, all you will achieve is the same as what a Limited Slip Diff does anyway - but less effectively and knackering the brakes at the same time! Doesn't the GT3 already have an LSD?
but surely if all 4 wheels are sensored in the event of over or under steer the traction control will either retard the ignition or brake the individual wheel to stabalise? Does the racelogic system provide individual wheel braking? In the event of understeer for instance the front wheels will be rotating at a slower speed than the rears-the sensors would then either brake the rears to bring the car back in line or cut the ignition to the same effect. Am I right?I'm not professing to be an expert here!
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kVA
1299 posts
42 months | Monday 8th February
Traction control is not a braking system or a stability control sytstem - it only operates to stop wheelspin under power and will not do anything to any wheels that are not actually driven by the engine.
You are confusing TC with Stability Control - which can't be retro-fitted. Traction Control has no way of knowing if you are oversteering or understeering - all it knows is if a driven wheel starts to turn faster than the other wheel (or both are turning faster than the wheels that aren't powered, if it is a little more sophisticated). The only braking it applies is to the actual wheel(s) that is/are spinning.
Traction control has one purpose only - to enable you to accelerate when one wheel has less traction than the other: Normally, an open differential will allow one wheel to spin while the other stops turning (so you would have no traction at all). Traction control stops this happening by braking one wheel, forcing the torque to be equalised across both wheels and so you can keep going. A limited slip differential is far more effective at this, as it doesn't actually reduce the power in the same way that applying the brakes does.
The only situation where you could benefit from TC AND a LSD is if both driven wheels start spinning... TC may then enable you to keep your foot down without swapping ends!
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Ralf Rockefeller
424 posts
14 months | Monday 8th February
I am by no means a GT3 owner, however, my brother-in-law has fitted race logic TC to his Supra TT.
I think it will work fine- it cuts the ignition if you over step it (and it is adjustable, so you can pick the slip angle). And yes, it works off the ABS sensors, but from my limited understanding, it does not apply the brakes- it just cuts the power via ignition).
Ignore most of the macho "you dont it, just use your foot etc".
If you feel safer with it, get it installed.
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lightweight
1131 posts
85 months | Monday 8th February
To the OP I think you are trying to cure a problem that does not exhist TC is not necesary on a GT3 the grip levals are huge. you would have to drive like a compleat C**t to break traction on the road even in the Wet.
Even aquaplaning which some feel is an issue is not helped by TC its an issue with inapropriat tyres.
If you forget about TC and teach whoever drives your car to exercise commen sence and self controle, then we will all be safer on the road.
The scariest thing in the world to me is a 22 year old evo driver who thinks TC helps him defy physics when physics catch up i would rather not be there!
I commute in a GT3 and even in the snow it was fine( just have to avoid all the 4x4's that forgot we all have 4 wheel breaking)
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cragswinter
785 posts
33 months | Monday 8th February
kVA said:
Traction control is not a braking system or a stability control sytstem - it only operates to stop wheelspin under power and will not do anything to any wheels that are not actually driven by the engine.
You are confusing TC with Stability Control - which can't be retro-fitted. Traction Control has no way of knowing if you are oversteering or understeering - all it knows is if a driven wheel starts to turn faster than the other wheel (or both are turning faster than the wheels that aren't powered, if it is a little more sophisticated). The only braking it applies is to the actual wheel(s) that is/are spinning.
Traction control has one purpose only - to enable you to accelerate when one wheel has less traction than the other: Normally, an open differential will allow one wheel to spin while the other stops turning (so you would have no traction at all). Traction control stops this happening by braking one wheel, forcing the torque to be equalised across both wheels and so you can keep going. A limited slip differential is far more effective at this, as it doesn't actually reduce the power in the same way that applying the brakes does.
The only situation where you could benefit from TC AND a LSD is if both driven wheels start spinning... TC may then enable you to keep your foot down without swapping ends! not quite what I was getting at, although it makes a bit more sense to know that race logics system only cuts the ignition & doesn't activate the brakes. So......if a system can only cut the ignition surely this will actas a kind of passive stability control? I know the traction control may not know if the cars under or oversteering but I'd it uses the abs sensors to attain which wheel is spinning faster (bear with me here) in the event of the car looseing traction at either end the system will cut the power until all four wheels are rotating at the correct speed,yeah? I had an exige with traction control & it did appear to work like a pseudo stability control in that as it stopped the rears from lighting up & causeing over/under steer again I may be completely wrong!
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DanH
12157 posts
97 months | Monday 8th February
kVA said:
DanH said:
I don't see how it is comparable to an LSD as an LSD won't stop you power oversteering whereas with this racelogic you can effectively dial in the angle it will hold the car at. I must research this unit if that is true... That is an amazing bit of technology if it can do that in a car without a yaw-rate sensor and without a steering angle sensor, just from the ABS system alone? How does it know what angle the car is at then, relative to the steered angle? My neighbour is quite senior at Racelogic, so I'll check, but I think you have misunderstood what this system does. It measures relative wheel speed and I guess infers slip from that? Have a look on their website, it is all covered in great detail. When I say dial in an angle, you are actually setting the level of slip which will effectively do that. I've not driven a Porsche with it on, but see no reason why it wouldn't work. Its the equivalent to what Porsche fitted onto the 7GT3mk1.
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christer
2199 posts
88 months | Monday 8th February
don't do it - it is not needed 
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fergus
4472 posts
112 months | Monday 8th February
DanH said:
kVA said:
DanH said:
I don't see how it is comparable to an LSD as an LSD won't stop you power oversteering whereas with this racelogic you can effectively dial in the angle it will hold the car at. I must research this unit if that is true... That is an amazing bit of technology if it can do that in a car without a yaw-rate sensor and without a steering angle sensor, just from the ABS system alone? How does it know what angle the car is at then, relative to the steered angle? My neighbour is quite senior at Racelogic, so I'll check, but I think you have misunderstood what this system does. It measures relative wheel speed and I guess infers slip from that? Have a look on their website, it is all covered in great detail. When I say dial in an angle, you are actually setting the level of slip which will effectively do that. I've not driven a Porsche with it on, but see no reason why it wouldn't work. Its the equivalent to what Porsche fitted onto the 7GT3mk1. it will probably infer slip angle from a combination of lat and long G sensors, perhaps a yaw rate sensor, which combined with the relative speeds of each wheel, it can calc what is happening. The steering angle isn't needed here. This is quite hard to get right with the throttle alone I would have thought...
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