Porkers.co.uk - Porsche discussion forum



Forum Home > RETRO FIT TRACTION TO A GT3? < Post ReplyReport Abuse
1 2

Author

Discussion

Don
25300 posts
121 months
 Monday 8th February  Reply with quote
I you want a car with traction control I'd suggets buying one. So - not a GT3, then.

The PSM system, as fitted to the 996 and Boxster range, is fantastic. It does not step in other than when things are going badly wrong.


Steve Rance
1626 posts
68 months
 Monday 8th February  Reply with quote
kVA said:
Steve Rance said:
it would be difficult to set up as the dynamic of the 911 is very different to most other cars. The relationship between front and rear grip is quite unbalanced as in most of the grip is at the rear on the driven wheels so the rear would probably not benefit from traction control unless the car was being driven very badly. The front end is dealt with quite adequately by the abs system. To be honest, I think you run a strong risk of making things worse by fitting one.
Errr... There would be no change to the front axle anyway (well, not unless you have one of those 4WD GT3's that you see advertised on eBay every now and again wink )

Proper traction control backs off the throttle if you have wheelspin and only applies the brakes if that is not enough to provide traction: If you don't have an electronic throttle, all TC can do is apply the brakes on the spinning wheel to try and switch the torque across the diff to the other wheel. If you have your foot hard down, all you will achieve is the same as what a Limited Slip Diff does anyway - but less effectively and knackering the brakes at the same time!

Doesn't the GT3 already have an LSD?

Edited by kVA on Sunday 7th February 19:17
I made my point badly. I meant to say that it is the front of the car that generally suffers from lack of grip, the rear is fine and since they are the driven wheels it would make things worse. I was however under the impression that modern traction control systems worked on the interaction between all wheels and applied braking force to wherever the lack of grip arose from. In this instance that would probably make things even worse on a 911. Either way, in my opinion Electronic driver aids have no plce on a GT3. The abs and limited slip diff work very well on the road.

Edited by Steve Rance on Monday 8th February 19:10



graemel
3270 posts
54 months
 Monday 8th February  Reply with quote
The 935 look alike race car that I drove at Spa last year had a traction control system fitted. I imagine it was race logic. It did have sensors on the hubs and it was wired through the cars Motec ignition system. Additionally there was an on off switch and an adjustable dial on the dash. The sad bit is that whoever carried out the installation of this system bu**ered it up and it did not work at all, so I never got to find out if it was effective.
So not much help to the OP BUT. The conditions that the Britcar raced in at Spa last year where horrendous, with torrential rain. Probably the worst conditions that I can ever remember racing in. Even running full wets the car would aquaplane towards the top of the Kemel Straight at about 115mph. TC would not have helped this and in truth unless I could emphatically prove to myself that the TC knows best I would never have used it. In fact testing at Spa the week before in the wet I only tried it in the last session of the day as the chaps preparing the car wanted to make sure it worked and it did not.
My advice is it is unnecessary and don't do it. That learning how to understand the behaviour of your car is far more important and if anything the TC may lull you into a false sense of security and potentially bite you in the ass. Spend the money on good tyres, suspension and geometry.


kVA
1299 posts
42 months
 Monday 8th February  Reply with quote
Steve Rance said:
I was however under the impression that modern traction control systems worked on the interaction between all wheels and applied braking force to wherever the lack of grip arose from. In this instance that would probably make things even worse on a 911. Either way, in my opinion Electronic driver aids have no plce on a GT3. The abs and limited slip diff work very well on the road.
Traction control is literally that - i.e. control of wheelspin only and, critically in a 911, will not correct lift-off oversteer as this is NOT caused by wheelspin under power! Only full stability control can do anything about that and for stability control (PSM in Porsche) you need a yaw rate sensor and a steering angle sensor as well: The systems then compare steered angle with actual trajectory of the car and control understeer or oversteer accordingly. PSM takes over engine management and uses individual wheel braking to get the car to turn at the same angle as the steering.

I agree with you that Traction Control alone in any 911 is a bit pointless unless you don't have an LSD and want to be able to floor the throttle on split-mu surfaces. I also agree that if you want the safety and security of PSM you shouldn't even be considering a GT3... (That's why I have a Turbo - 4WD and PSM for an all-year-round daily-driver smile )


DanH
12157 posts
97 months
 Monday 8th February  Reply with quote
fergus said:
DanH said:
kVA said:
DanH said:
I don't see how it is comparable to an LSD as an LSD won't stop you power oversteering whereas with this racelogic you can effectively dial in the angle it will hold the car at.
I must research this unit if that is true... That is an amazing bit of technology if it can do that in a car without a yaw-rate sensor and without a steering angle sensor, just from the ABS system alone?

How does it know what angle the car is at then, relative to the steered angle?

My neighbour is quite senior at Racelogic, so I'll check, but I think you have misunderstood what this system does.
It measures relative wheel speed and I guess infers slip from that? Have a look on their website, it is all covered in great detail. When I say dial in an angle, you are actually setting the level of slip which will effectively do that.

I've not driven a Porsche with it on, but see no reason why it wouldn't work. Its the equivalent to what Porsche fitted onto the 7GT3mk1.
it will probably infer slip angle from a combination of lat and long G sensors, perhaps a yaw rate sensor, which combined with the relative speeds of each wheel, it can calc what is happening. The steering angle isn't needed here. This is quite hard to get right with the throttle alone I would have thought...
I don't think its that sophisticated but haven't looked at the web bumpf for a while. There is a load on there site about it :




The system works by monitoring the speed of all four wheels using the ABS system or specially fitted sensors. When wheelspin is detected the engine power is reduced, by cutting a single injector pulse or a spark, until grip is resumed. This occurs in a thousandth of a second, and appears to the driver as a slight miss-fire with no loss in acceleration.

Maximum acceleration is achieved by limiting the slip between the tyre and the road. The point at which a tyre is just beginning to slip against the road gives the maximum coefficient of friction value.



http://www.racelogic.co.uk/?show=Traction_Control

It's like the TCS they had in F1 where you can mash the the throttle on corner exit and it will find max grip without power oversteer. This is why I don't see it being the same as an LSD as that will quite happily let you snap the car around on the throttle if road grip disappears very quickly. Of course I've not tried this system so no idea how well it would work in that situation, but the reviews of Elises which apparently use this are very positive.


BertBert
3407 posts
48 months
 Monday 8th February  Reply with quote
I think Dan has got it re the racelogic system. Whether there is an LSD or not is irrelevent. It uses wheel speed sensors to work out if you have slip. Then it cuts fuel or spark to stop the slip. Not complicated. And to anyone who thinks that a GT3 with LSD doesn't lose traction under power, you're bonkers. Of course it does. You need to get out and drive your cars in winter.

So yes a racelogic TC system is perfectly suitable to a GT3.

Mind you I am not that keen on cutting fuel (running lean) or cutting ignition (bore wash), but people seem to use it ok...

Bert


Mr Fix It
317 posts
105 months
 Tuesday 9th February  Reply with quote
Thanks for all the comments. I thought it may throw up a few discussions... Ive had 2 wheel rear drive cars before with a TVR, m3 breadvan and a Lotus exige. The exige was a cup car which had this kind of TC on it and it worked well. I know its probably best to get a car with a TC system on it if Im that worried, as I said, I have considered a 6TT. The problem I have is that I dont really like the 6TT, and more importantly I lost the M3 coupe in a spin many years ago and that shuck me up. The back wheels lost it - and this was when I was gently (yes this is true, no lie) accelerating in a straight line! I was only doing about 20mph and had no control of the car what so ever. This does make me sound like a bad driver, but to my defense I am nearly 40, have been driving rear wheel cars for 10 years or so and have caught spins, slips ect before.... Now I know that Im no racing driver, or driving god, but equally I dont expect a car to behave like that. The good thing about the spin is that it did make me realise the imporance of good tyres and car set up, as I think the reason the car spin, with no way of getting it back, was due to its poor state (it was booked in at the local BMW for a few things to be changed on the rear suspension...)

Anyway, I liked the security of the TC on the lotus (which I think was a racelogic system). I dont intend to be in a hedge, but anything which I can do to prevent this (appart from driving a diesel) in the one in a 1,000,000 chance that may happen like this again, Im prepared to consider.

ChrisW - Do you go to any meeting in North Yorks for the porsche club? I did go to the TVR and Lotus ones once in a blue moon when I had those cars. Maybe then I could meet some GT3 owners to have a look firsthand at some Mk1s to see what they are like.


Advertisement
kVA
1299 posts
42 months
 Tuesday 9th February  Reply with quote
OK, fine, but the reason most 911s end up in hedges is due to lift-off oversteer and TC will definitely NOT help you there and the LSD on a GT3 will help with the situation you had in your BMW.

I'm sorry, but from your last post, I don't think you should be looking at GT3s or Turbos... If a 20 mph spin in a BMW shook you up, using the performance of either of those will probably kill you frown


Steve Rance
1626 posts
68 months
 Tuesday 9th February  Reply with quote
I'm inclined to agree.


BertBert
3407 posts
48 months
 Tuesday 9th February  Reply with quote
kVA said:
and the LSD on a GT3 will help with the situation you had in your BMW.
Are you sure?

In the circs described, to lose the back end under acceleration like that, you have to lose traction on both wheels. If you don't have an LSD you will just spin up one wheel, lose all drive and keep directional traction with the other wheel.

If you have an LSD and spin up both wheels, that's when it goes pear-shaped.

Bert


kVA
1299 posts
42 months
 Tuesday 9th February  Reply with quote
BertBert said:
kVA said:
and the LSD on a GT3 will help with the situation you had in your BMW.
Are you sure?

In the circs described, to lose the back end under acceleration like that, you have to lose traction on both wheels. If you don't have an LSD you will just spin up one wheel, lose all drive and keep directional traction with the other wheel.
No you won't... Whichever wheel has lost traction in isolation will always try to get in front of the rest of the car. If both rear wheels are spinning and the steering is pointing straight ahead you will stay straight (unless there is a camber or your start waggling the steering)

If you don't believe me it is a very easy theory to test: Get a toy car with rubber tyres and put sellotape around one of the wheels and then roll it down a slope... Whichever way around you do it, the wheel with least traction (i.e. the sellotape) will try to get in front of the rest of the car wink


Mr Fix It
317 posts
105 months
 Tuesday 9th February  Reply with quote
I know what you mean. The crash did a lot of damage and I ended up on top of a crash barrier like a see-saw. The thing which shuck me up was that it is possible to go into a spin when travelling in a straight line at such low speed with no provocation, and the spining action happened so fast so I could do little to stop it. In the previous cars I had, such sideways action could be gathered, but that time it was determined to go where IT wanted. The road was damp and it was in winter, but I was doing nothing stupid to cause it. I have since been driving rear wheel cars without problem, so got over my fears. Also treat them with respect. Its also a question of, if my wife or family take it out, I dont want to give them a ticket to hell by doing this!


Mr Fix It
317 posts
105 months
 Tuesday 9th February  Reply with quote
I know what you mean, I probably did not write the previous reply very well. I have had faster cars than a 996TT, and Im still alive, I do drive quite sedately. I dont take risks when driving and really Im asking myself why do I want a GT3 as I would really never get anywhere near its limits by the way I drive? For me, I do pick the cars I have had partly due to the "special feeling" you get from driving them no matter what speed you are going.

But, I just dont want to buy a car that has a similar ability to the z3M coupe I had which just wanted to change directions when you looked at it, never mind when driving it. I believe the porsche would be better as it has been designed as a sports car from the start (Im not convinced the z3 is really in that class). Hopefully that gives you a more rounded understanding of what Im looking for.


mikey k
499 posts
53 months
 Tuesday 9th February  Reply with quote
ChrisW. said:
Yes the previous owner of my car --- at GT3MkI fitted a traction control system as an adjunct to the ABS system.

I can only out you in touch with the previous owner ... in Falkirk, but will that help ?
This is a Racelogic system.
I looked at buying that car (Orange one?)and noticed it had this system on it.
I have the same system on a highly modified 400 BHP S2000.
It works well, basically uses the ABS sensors to decide how and when to cut the injector signals.
It is ONLY TRACTION CONTROL not stability control, it will not sort it out if you lose grip at high speed.


Mr Fix It
317 posts
105 months
 Tuesday 9th February  Reply with quote
Cheers Mikey


1 2
Forum Home > RETRO FIT TRACTION TO A GT3? < Post Reply

Porkers.co.uk is part of the PistonHeads network